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The Other Way
Hello and welcome to The Other Way, a lifestyle podcast for women exploring uncommon, unconventional, or alternative approaches in life, health, spirituality, and work. Here, you can expect real, raw conversations with founders, researchers, trailblazers, experts in medicine, spiritual teachers, and all-around inspiring humans on the journey of doing things our way. It may not be “the way,” but it is the other way. So, if you’re like us and feel called to listen to that deeper voice - you’re in the right place. Welcome.
The Other Way
081: [FEMALE STORIES] Embracing discomfort, reinventing yourself, & intentional living with Cecily Mak
What if the key to transforming your career and personal life lies in embracing discomfort and letting go of numbing habits? In this episode of "The Other Way," we sit down with Cecily Mak, a mother, writer, podcast host, Founder of the ClearLife movement, and co-founder of Wisdom Ventures, who shares her journey from a high-powered career in law to leading a movement focused on intentional living.
Today we cover:
- Cecily’s journey going from 20 years of diverse experience as an attorney, revenue leader, and COO to launching the ClearLife movement, authoring a book, and her podcast
- Releasing dimmers: aka substances, media, habits that “numb” or alleviate our uncomfortable emotions
- As a mindfulness practitioner, how Cecily balances aspiration with presence and contentment
- The key questions Cecily asks herself to tune into her values, her North Star, and honing her intuition
- Daily practices for tapping into her intuition (including a simple way to recognize “signs” from the Universe)
- Navigating imposter syndrome and doubt (Even top tier executives and founders experience this! Loved the honesty)
- How a devastating breast cancer diagnosis pointed her more firmly towards her path (validation that “rock bottom” moments can point us towards our greatest gifts)
+ so much more
About Cecily:
Cecily Mak is a mother to two sons, writer, podcast host, co-founder of Wisdom Ventures, and the visionary behind ClearLife. ClearLife is a journey toward an undimmed life, where intention and presence flourish, unencumbered by the stigmas of addiction.
Cecily's ClearLife journey, influenced by her triumph over breast cancer in 2022 and her late mother's battle with alcoholism, fuels her mission of transformation and healing. Through her work, she extends a compassionate hand to those navigating similar paths, guiding them toward a life defined by connection, clarity, and well-being.
With over 20 years of diverse experience as an attorney, revenue leader, and COO, Cecily has spearheaded the growth of startups across various industries, including music, publishing, mindfulness, well-being, and crypto. As co-founder of Wisdom Ventures and co-founding limited partner of How Women Invest, Cecily is a champion for greater human connection and well-being. Her board memberships and support for various organizations, notably at SIY Global, and The U.S. Alcohol Policy Alliance, underscore her commitment to ethical leadership and social responsibility.
Whether parenting her two sons, supporting impact-driven entrepreneurs, or engaging with a global community, Cecily embodies the principles of ClearLife, inspiring others to embrace authenticity and heart-centered living. Her dedication to fostering presence, healthier relationships, and intentional living resonates deeply with individuals seeking a path of alignment and fulfillment.
Connect with Cecily:
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Hello and welcome to the Other Way, a lifestyle podcast exploring uncommon, unconventional or otherwise alternative approaches to life, business and health. I'm your host, kasia. I'm the founder of InFlow, a women's wellness brand that designs intentional products to help women reconnect to their unique cyclical rhythm and find a balance between being and doing. This podcast is an extension of my mission within Flow. Here we provide intentional interviews with inspiring humans, trailblazers, researchers, spiritual teachers and more on the journey of doing things the other way. On the journey of doing things the other way. Hello, hello everyone, welcome back to the Other Way. I'm your host, kasia, and if you hear my slightly raspy voice, you'll know that I am recovering from a cold. I kind of like this voice, though it's like very deep, very French, I imagine. I don't know, but anyway, I digress. I am back in California, so happy to be here and so excited to welcome a very special guest today, cecily Mack.
Speaker 1:Cecily is a mother writer, podcast host and co-founder of Wisdom Ventures, as well as the visionary behind Clear Life, a movement focused on intentional, stigma-free living, particularly for those overcoming addiction. But I do want to add honestly, I feel like Clear Life is for everyone. In today's conversation, we definitely dive into it. But a Clear Life is a life that allows us to release any quote, unquote dimmers in our lives the activities, the substances, the habits that hold us back from really being present, with uncomfortable emotions and, as Cecily describes today, these are unavoidable in our society, our society. Today's conversation dives into the principles of clear life, something that Cecily embodies in her day-to-day life, professional work and her choices. In today's conversation, we are covering Cecily's journey, going from 20 years of diverse experience as an attorney, revenue leader, coo, through to launching the Clear Life Movement, authoring a book and her podcast. We definitely talk about the experience of the career shift and I'm so grateful that Cecily spoke so honestly about the experience, about the imposter syndrome, about the doubt and, of course, the affirmations that helped her along the way, some of which might be surprising.
Speaker 1:We talk about the power of releasing dimmers, which, again as I mentioned, are substances, media, habits that numb or alleviate our uncomfortable feelings and emotions. And what are the benefits of letting go of some of those dimmers in our lives and why that's so important of some of those dimmers in our lives and why that's so important. We talk about how, as a mindfulness practitioner, cecily balances both aspiration with contentment and how as I guess she didn't say this, but I would describe her as a incredibly accomplished and ambitious woman how she was able to really find presence and contentment in the midst of climbing the ladder, so to speak. We talk about some of the key questions that Cecily asks herself to tune into her values, her North Star and how she hones her intuition. We talk about daily practices for tapping into and cultivating more of that gut instinct, including a simple way to recognize signs from the universe. We talk about how a devastating breast cancer diagnosis propelled her forward onto her path, and I think this is quite key because it is validation that some of the rock bottom moments that we experience in our lives can actually point us towards some of our greatest gifts.
Speaker 1:This conversation was beyond inspiring and now, without further ado, let's welcome this incredible woman to the Other Way. Let's go y'all. Cecily, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. It's so fun to be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. It's so fun to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. This has been a long time coming and I love that our kind of online friendship turned into an offline one and now we have you here. So thank you, thank you, thank you. We have a lot to cover. We do.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But before we get started, I want to start with a question that I ask every guest, and that is what are three words that you would use to describe yourself?
Speaker 2:Ooh, I love that. My best girlfriend and I use that in text threads for how are you right now? So when we can't do big long calls, we say three words. Okay, so three words to describe me. You want the aspirational me or the accurate me?
Speaker 1:Wait, why don't you give me both? That would be interesting, yeah, okay cool.
Speaker 2:So we'll start with the aspirational me, because I think we all kind of see ourselves in some ways the way we wish we were, and I'll say the three words to describe the aspirational me are present, calm and loving, and I do try to live by those every day. But I think maybe more true or accurate me is contemplative, reflective and intense. I'm a bit more intense than I wish I was, or so I understand. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle of those six, but that's how I feel today.
Speaker 1:I love that. I actually I've never had a guest kind of describe aspirational self versus like reality today. I'm curious what would you, how would you describe, like the reason for the gap between the two? Like, are you trying to get to aspirational self? Because the real three words are pretty good too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's a great follow up, I mean. I I think it's cause I live in this growth mode. I really am constantly trying to strike this balance between being aware of where I've been being thoughtful about where I'm going and being as present as possible with how things are, and where I am been being thoughtful about where I'm going and being as present as possible with how things are and where I am in this moment. And if there's one thing that I've learned, it's that you know, as soon as we get used to something, as soon as we think something is permanent, it shifts. And so I've really embraced this sense of kind of flow and change and impermanence in my life which has given me some freedom to think about well, where do I want to be in five years or 10 years or 50 years? I did this exercise this morning of imagining a letter that my kid writes to me in 30 years I'm 50, now I just turned 50.
Speaker 2:And that was a birthday, thank you, thank you. Um, it was an interesting exercise of kind of thinking about what's, who's, that woman I want to be in another 30 years, and so I kind of live in that, in that place of of both aware of the past but also with an eye to the future as well.
Speaker 1:Oof.
Speaker 1:Well, I didn't expect to get here so quickly, but I'm really glad we did, because one of the things that I absolutely love about your work and we're obviously going to get into all of that, but the teachings that you put out into the world and also just the work and the way that you work and operate in the world day to day with the other work that you do kind of the operational work, the consulting work, the business side of things is that I feel like you kind of sit in this very unique place of having your feet dipped into a very deep contemplative space.
Speaker 1:You kind of describe some of those words, as you know, aspirationally present, but also very reflective day to day. But then also in that growth mindset, and I often feel like aspiring for the future can be at odds with being present and content with what's happening today, and I know you're a meditator. So I feel like it is appropriate to ask you how do you juggle the two, especially as somebody who has a very objectively on the outside, successful career? You have climbed the ladder, so to speak. You continue to aspire and look into the future. How do you balance that with being present and content day to day?
Speaker 2:That's such a good question, and if we have the answer to that, I mean all of our problems would be solved right. So you need a whole podcast on just that question, I think. But I think for me it even months would go by and I wouldn't have really noticed what happened. This was particularly true in my years working in Silicon Valley. When my kids were younger, it was just an incessant treadmill of activity and survival energy, and these days my work is a little bit more of a reflection of what I care about. I'm much more attentive to boundaries and I don't just throw that word around casually, I really mean it. Where are the areas of life where an iPhone are not welcome or being distracted by a to-do list for the next day is inappropriate? And really being attentive to holding certain spaces in almost a sacred way most of the time just for human connection, being with another human being, although sometimes that means just being with ourselves too. So I try to every single day have those, those moments of real intentionality and presence with what is happening.
Speaker 2:I had an example last night. It was nine o'clock. We just got this new little outdoor rug for this space outside of our front door and I'm super excited about it because it makes that little, previously concrete space look and feel like a new room in our house. And it's so gorgeous out here in Northern California these days that I want us all outside more after dinner and keep everybody off their screens. And I brought my 13-year-old son out there to show him this total nerdy mom moment. Like, kiddo, come out here, you got to see this cool new thing we just did. And we sat down and he said, mom, you want to play backgammon? And I was like, oh my God, yeah, yes, definitely, let's play backgammon. And I was like, oh my God, yeah, yes, definitely, let's play Backgammon here in the dark right now, even though it's bedtime. And we went and got this flashlight and brought it out there and sat under the tree and played Backgammon and it was one of those moments of just.
Speaker 2:I'm really glad I had the awareness to not just go straight to the to-do list or the errands or chores, rather, of the evening and just be present with my kid for 15 minutes of analog backgammon game.
Speaker 2:And so the more I can kind of say yes to those moments and say no to the distractions, the easier it gets and the less weird it feels.
Speaker 2:Honestly, if I'd done that 10 years ago while I still had 15 emails to respond to before going to bed, I would have been caught in some foolish shame loop around not doing something I said I was going to do.
Speaker 2:But because it's been this gradual process of developing boundaries around non-work time and really being there for the people that we love, when we have an opportunity to spend time with them, it feels a little bit more natural, and then we can also have the moment of noticing that and saying isn't this cool, can we do this again sometime? Okay, great, love you, good night. And it sort of sets a little seed plant for a future similar opportunity, which ends up kind of defining your life and that's what life is at the end of the day is how you spend those moments, and so it's an ongoing process and I don't mean to make it sound like I'm perfect at this either. There are definitely times when I notice, every single time I walk into my kid's room, my phone is in my hand, and I don't want my children to remember me as constantly walking around with my phone in my hand. So you know it's an ever learning for sure.
Speaker 1:I love that. I think that was just such a tangible example of like how important it is to be able to take back some power, I think, in this experience, because that whole aspirational, awakened state of you know, feeling that presence and that contentment and that openheartedness in the moment it kind of feels sometimes like so far away. But you know, in the day to day it's a series of choices that can kind of bring us closer to that, and so I love that your awareness of, honestly, the actions that you're taking can like help facilitate that presence day to day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's also we. There's a there's a ripple effect for those choices around us too. You know, I'd like to believe that in doing these things, we give permission to those around us to do the same. There's nothing that we do in life that doesn't have some kind of corresponding awareness or reaction or impact, and so I think, to the extent we can see the significance of those choices and you're exactly right, the word choice is the most important word here how do we choose to spend those moments? And we get to make millions of those decisions a week. So I love that.
Speaker 1:Follow up question actually, because you know, I always I feel like we kind of sit in a very we right now, me talking to you. I sit in a very interesting position because in many ways you've accomplished so much in your life, like things that people who are kind of earlier in their career might look at and be like, oh my gosh. Well, it's easy for her to say that she can set these boundaries, because look at where she is and the habits of the past brought her to where she is today. I'm curious, what would you say to like the Cecily who was much earlier in her career, perhaps feeling a lot of uncertainty about would she end up, you know where she had aspired to be, knowing what you know now, like would you have done things differently?
Speaker 1:Because Arianna Huffington has this amazing book on sleep and I remember it was like one of my first introductions to kind of, you know, bringing a little bit more balance into my life and like prioritizing some of these very important habits, and I remember reading it and just being like you know this was a few years ago. I was just scoffing. I'm like, okay, well it's. Obviously she can talk about this today. Look at where she is. You know she created the Huffington Post, but she so clearly says that those other habits that helped get her there. So I'm curious do you think it is possible to be able to kind of get to the levels that you have in your career with some of the habits that you're enacting now, like what kind of advice would you give to that?
Speaker 1:young self or somebody who's in the that position right now.
Speaker 2:That's a great question and I appreciate. I just want to thank you for the the kind words around my career path. It's funny I feel like I'm starting a new career now, so I feel like a kindergartner all the time and it's an interesting feeling to hear you say you know, oh, look, how far you've come, because I so often these days feel like I'm barely just getting started. So I just want to acknowledge that. I think, going back to an earlier version of me, you know my first thought is, yeah, it's just harder when you are younger and you're not accustomed to saying no to things and you worry about getting fired or voted off the island because you don't show up at your full capacity all the time. But the next level, if you kind of peel it back one more, is actually going to fear right. So what is it that makes us self-abandon and adhere to an expectation or a guideline of somebody else in violation of our own preferences and needs? And I think young women, particularly young mothers, but young women generally suffer from this the most because I mean, I'm 50 now, let's speak to more of a couple of decades younger. Your mothers were sort of the first generation that quote had a level playing field in the professional world, right? So your grandmothers, some of them, were the first to graduate as women from prestigious universities or, in some cases, as women from prestigious universities, or, in some cases, even have the freedom to vote or wear a skirt. I mean, it's easy to forget how young we are with our freedoms in this country, even as they're being decayed right before our very eyes by old systems still trying to take over. And it's natural, I think, for us to worry about making a wrong move and falling out of grace with a powerful man above us or a system or a team or a kind of a policy or practice that we feel like we're lucky we got into right. It's the classic imposter, complex thing and I still have this all the time.
Speaker 2:My partner was making fun of me this weekend. He was laughing at me. He's like what's your you know your biggest fear? I'm like I don't know that I'm going to get found out, that I have no idea what I am doing. I am a total fraud. I am faking my way through this whole thing and somebody is going to walk in my office one day and say we figured it out. You don't belong. So this is like deep seated stuff, it's fear stuff, it's fear of inadequacy, it's fear of unworthiness. And so the deepest, greatest, most powerful work we can do whether we're 16 or 66, is kind of go into that place a little bit and kind of try to face and understand it and challenge it for its truth. What's the worst thing that's going to happen?
Speaker 2:If so, thinking back to a younger version of myself, you know, in my, in my twenties, in a law firm, for example, I just let the team steamroll over my life all the time. I spent weekends in offices where the air conditioning was turned off, going through paper after paper after paper, doing diligence on some acquisition deal for some company in middle America that I'd never met a human from and would never hear or see of again, because I was working as an associate on a billable hour and there were expectations that I'd do what I was told to do as an employee, and I had this message that it was my privilege to be there, how lucky I was to be there. And I think, going back, I probably would tell myself to be a little bit more courageous about defending my space and time a little bit better. Be a little bit more courageous about defending my space and time a little bit better, knowing that the worst thing that could possibly happen would be maybe a talking to or maybe a second talking to, and maybe I would be able to feel the feelings that would come with that and recognize a little bit faster that it wasn't the right work environment for me and made a career move a little bit more quickly than I did. So I think that the main thing is to kind of do that exercise with yourself and go to the. What is the worst thing that could happen? If I actually do this, what's actually keeping me from honoring myself and not self-abandoning for others' expectations? I'm still learning that, obviously, but I think that that's something that's applicable really at any age or stage of one's life or career and it can build a lot of courage, it can help us be more bold, it can help us be an example to somebody who needs to see somebody kind of stepping forward.
Speaker 2:I'll tell one last little story with this. In my last COO role, one of the big company global offsite meetings was scheduled for March 1st in Dublin, ireland, and I live in California and I saw this email come through and I'm the COO of the company, right. I'd kind of weighed in on Dayton's location and I replied all on the email and I said you know, looks like a great event and I'm so happy you all are going to do this. I will not be attending because that is my son's 11th birthday and I don't miss birthdays anymore, period. Wow, super scary moment, right, like kind of you know, even in my big fancy role second to the CEO of the company, I didn't clear that with him first or the people team or anything, and it was quiet and you know, whatever the, the offsite continued and happened and everybody was fine.
Speaker 2:When I left that company I had at least a dozen people come to me in the last couple of days and say thank you so much for doing that. Because you did it, I knew that I could do it too and I don't miss really important family moments anymore for a work commitment and the company is fine. And what feels so good about that is that it's a kind of a healing of a shame that I had for years for not doing that for my own kids when they were younger. So it's an ongoing learning, but that's a big one for me.
Speaker 1:I think that is so helpful. Honestly, I mean just to be able to ask that question and really get to the root of also what values do you choose to live from? I think that's also kind of you didn't say this exact word, but as I kind of reflect on what you were sharing around, like you know what, whose expectations are you living by? As, like the question, and like which ones do you actually want to live by, I think that reflection is just so important and you know, as we kind of alluded to at the very beginning, it's like every single decision, those little moments, add up to be your life, and I think that's so powerful and for what it's worth.
Speaker 1:Actually, there is a COO that I remember very early in my career Joanna, if you're listening, because we're still in touch, see you, she was just like so, on top of the fact that when she would take vacations she wouldn't respond to emails, and she was like actually out of office, like this sounds like maybe more of a normal concept now, but I was based in New York at the time and nobody in the office did that Like all the executives were like still replying to things, and I just remember being like whoa, like I feel like that gives me permission, and it goes to your point that when you lead by that kind of true North within yourself, you do give other people, hopefully, if even a nugget of inspiration, but also, in a way, permission to do the same. It's so powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so in honoring her and I love that you just mentioned her by name, that's great Did that change your way of taking vacation at all? Did it have an impact on you?
Speaker 1:It did. It definitely changed my way of taking vacations. I did. It definitely changed my way of taking vacations. It was quite a bit of time before I adjusted my kind of working relationship overall with kind of setting boundaries. Unfortunately, it was a learning that came only after I left the corporate world and now I still consult with other startups and the consulting framework I think is a lot better for me. But I do wish that I could have taken some of the things that we're talking about right now to my younger self and frankly, I still keep in touch with a lot of co-workers who are maybe earlier in their career who struggle with this because the expectations when you're in it feel so like impermeable, like you can't change them. So I think it's really important to name this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, beautiful.
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Speaker 1:Now back to the episode Amazing. Well, so you kind of segued to this pretty well. You know you've had an impressive career to date. You're doing amazing things in the world, a lot of new things kind of coming up, and I would love to talk about this career shift because I think that this is really important.
Speaker 1:And I would love to talk about this career shift because I think that this is really important and this is not your first career shift, because I've kind of noted this down, but you went from, you were an attorney, you worked in Silicon Valley, you are a partner at Wisdom Ventures and a lot of incredible other things, with, of course, the Clear Life journey, your book and some other things we won't talk about. Can you kind of talk about the experience of this career shift and especially speaking to something that I think is very familiar for people, the experience of almost feeling like, oh, wow, everything I did to date is like you know, that's that Now I feel like a beginner and it's this weird new experience and, yeah, tell me about that. What has that been like for you?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. Well, it's certainly humbling right, especially if you, you know, if you do well in a prior career, you have a lot of competency and confidence that you can fall back on, even on, you know, crappy days. It's like, well, I have good credentials here and I'm trusted and I have the relationships that I could do part of this role in my sleep. And when you start something new and you don't really know how the industry works, you don't really understand how to solve a problem, or you don't have enough credibility yet to get a phone call or a meeting with somebody who you really want to speak with, because they don't recognize you or your background, that's humbling stuff. It's great, though, because what it does is it invites us to really double and triple down on our commitment to that next thing, and for so many people, if you're making a career shift in the middle of your life, you have to really be certain that you want to make that change and you have to be passionate enough about what you're doing next, whether it's passionate about the substance and subject matter or just simply passionate about changing your lifestyle and your hours of work schedule. You don't have to be writing a book or launching a movement or fulfilling a long time passion to make a change to your career trajectory. It could be hang on. I'm tired of international travel for business. I want to be home by 3.30 every day for my kids for the next decade, because they're going to be in school for another 10 years, and I kind of want to make snacks and help with homework or whatever your thing is. But for me, it was one of those kind of it was a calling almost. I didn't really have much of a choice to make the change and it was a colorful two-year shift. It's still underway. I had taken a break from drinking, which was supposed to be a 30-day breather in 2017. And it was so impactful that I ended up extending it to 60 and 90 and then a year, all of 2018.
Speaker 2:And because it was such a change, it affected so much of my life, I started writing about the experience just to metabolize and understand it and make sense of it. I didn't see myself as an addict. I didn't see myself as having an alcohol problem. I felt like the change I was making was because I was making a new choice every day to not consume, something that dimmed me out, and so in writing about it. I ended up with a memoir and a couple of editors who helped me along the way, and here I was kind of seeding and nurturing that passion in my Instagram community while also still working in this crazy COO role for my last tech company, and I got to a point in 2022 where I just said you know, enough is enough. I'm going to make this leap, like I've got to give it a shot with this book. I actually feel so passionately about this and the change I made in my life is one I wish my mother had made in hers, and people want to talk about this and engage on this topic, and I felt really called to do it, so I started my exit process.
Speaker 2:The last email to the company went out in the first week in December 22. And six days later I had a breast cancer diagnosis, which was not in script. I did not plan for that part of it, but in a weird way, it was oddly affirmative of my choice. It was like oh yeah, this is the right thing to do and I'll share one more just difficult truth that resonates with women a lot. Share one more just difficult truth that resonates with women a lot.
Speaker 2:I remember the first morning after the phone call from the doctor telling me that my test results indicated I had breast cancer, I went into the bathroom. I was brushing my teeth and I looked at myself in the mirror and I said now nobody can challenge you for this choice. I had had so many people in my life try to talk me out of leaving my fancy pants you know CXX tech job to work on this little book project. But with a diagnosis like that and the kind of implicit sense of time scarcity and intentionality doubling down, tripling down that came with that, I had this kind of renewed and refreshed confidence in having made the right choice, which was actually really powerful in and of itself. So I quickly exited the company.
Speaker 2:I spent the beginning of 2023 treating and healing from luckily early enough caught breast cancer and the second half of last year really kind of planting seeds and setting the stage for what this looks like now. And boy am I learning as I go. I knew nothing about the publishing industry. I knew nothing about working with agents. I had never myself hosted a podcast before. I was very unaccustomed to some of the attention I started getting.
Speaker 2:I'm still getting used to that and it's been a real opportunity to apply some of my own work to my own experience and trying to stay true to what matters and what are my core values and why do I get up every morning and put so much energy and passion into this work. So it's still quite awkward, but so far, so good. And every once in a while I'll say we have moments of self-doubt or questioning. The universe really shows up and reaffirms that I'm on the right path. So I'm very grateful for those signals when they come, and that's often something as simple as a DM from somebody on social thanking me for something I said or did that helped them in some big or small way, and that just feels like a little gentle nudge along, like keep going, keep going. This is the right thing. So I'm super grateful for that part too.
Speaker 1:I will add that I think your story right now cause I haven't heard it, I think it's in its entirety like this before, for in terms of like an affirmation, I want to send one your way right now that just hearing this whole journey of course I followed the wisdom that you put out every single week and I'm your book but just even hearing this story in and of itself, the journey that you've kind of gone on, is inspirational for me because it can be so easy, I think, in these times of magic darks, slash shakeups, slash shakeups.
Speaker 1:You leave your corporate job, the career that you have built up after all these years, with all those naysayers and the doubt, and then you have this rock bottom, but to hear that this rock bottom in a way actually was shifted into a gift of a sign that you're going in the right direction and then all these things are unfolding, that follow up and like affirm that I think that is so important for people to hear, because I think it can be so easy to hear about that diagnosis or that scare or that whatever kind of breakdown of some sort and immediately kind of view, that as a sign that you're actually going in the wrong direction, that you shouldn't invest time in this, you shouldn't make that scary choice, and so I just want to reflect that, that perspective. I don't think everyone would share that, and I think it's important to share that journey, because seeing it that way is also very important.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. You know you're reminding me of something I reflect on a lot, speaking of my reflective tendencies, which is this notion of looking for a sign. This is something I learned, actually, from my Aunt Judy, who's a bit of a maternal figure to me in my whole life. We sadly just lost her recently, so I'm still metabolizing that grief a bit. But whenever I was faced with a tough decision and I would reach out to her which was often this is everything from which school to go to, whether or not to change jobs, deep things in a relationship, family she would counsel me to look for a sign. She'd say you know, just when you go into your day to day, look for the sign and it might be. You know a letter on the sidewalk as you're walking, which is the first letter of the company you're considering accepting an offer from. That happened to me, and the sidewalk was in front of my house and I had been walking over that letter for five years before I noticed it that day. I was looking for a sign.
Speaker 2:The wisdom in that tool is exactly what you're saying, which is it's actually about perspective. So if you're out there and you're looking for a signal from outside of yourself for which way to go. You already know the right thing to do. Your subconscious will help you spot that external affirmation or signal or guidance that you're not consciously seeking, and that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 2:So when you talk about my seeing my breast cancer diagnosis as an affirmation of the right path, it was because I was so absolutely certain that it was the right path at that moment.
Speaker 2:I mean, I could have woken up that morning and had really anything have happened and I would have perceived it as an affirmation of my choices, whereas maybe in other cases it would be totally the opposite. So I think you know and it goes also to you'll love this you know, when we're faced with a tough decision, there are people that we might call for their advice or their input. Yeah, and we kind of know before we get them on the phone which way they're going to lean, based on who they are and the role they have in their lives. So for me, for example, if I'm making a decision that involves something financial and I'm about to call my brother, who's much more financially conservative than I am, I know, before even having to speak with him, that my deeper knowing is to not make the risky move, because I'm reaching out to somebody who I, maybe unconsciously already know is going to guide me in the way that my inner self knows is the right path. So it's a wonderful little life hack and decision-making that I just love.
Speaker 1:That is so good. I love that. I love that because when you kind of put it out there that you're looking for a sign, the first one that you see and like the message behind it is, is just going to affirm what your gut says oh, that is so good. Now I think it is really important, though, as we kind of talk about signs and you know, gut instincts and kind of honing in on what is that North Star and truth for each of us individually, that it is really important to kind of have the clarity to be able to do that.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that you talk about very frequently is the choice and the actions taken in your life and in the lives of the people that are part of this clear life movement. How important it is to kind of release or shed or, you know, kind of declutter whatever the term might be the dimmers in our lives, that kind of create almost like a fuzziness or veil from that. And for you, of course, you spoke to alcohol being one of those choices that needed to be released. But I love that you also talk about other dimmers, because I think we're not even conscious of what those are. Could you kind of share with the audience what is a dimmer and how can people become more aware of, perhaps, some of the ways that they might be consuming dimmers in all different forms?
Speaker 2:This is the heart of my passion. I love this question. So I didn't embark upon this seven years ago thinking about dimmers or clarity or anything like that. These were all awarenesses that evolved over time. What happened was, when I paused drinking myself, I noticed that I had an easier access to my intuition. So as the months passed, my own inner guidance just got clearer. And when I had an inclination to mute that inner guidance for some reason, it was because something was making me uncomfortable and I was trying to kind of power muscle through it in some way. So over time, this awareness evolved to seeing that so many of us I mean all of us in some way, shape or form do something eat something, drink something, smoke something to kind of manage some of our inner discomfort that we experience by just being human beings.
Speaker 2:So it can be alcohol, of course. That's a very prevalent dimmer self-soother available in our culture today. It could also be social media just spending time scrolling. It could be hopping online and spending money on something that we think is going to make our life better or us look better or be kind as a gesture to somebody else. Whatever it might be spending, for many of us it could be work, just the escape of work. When we're in pain, pouring ourselves into a project that will either yield some positive feedback or outcome or income, or whatever it is, this can be an enormous relief. Other ones are exercise, sex. A lot of people use food for relief or self-soothing or escapism. The list goes on and on. My current favorite is what I refer to as toxic generosity, which is I haven't heard that one before.
Speaker 1:actually, what is that?
Speaker 2:When you're having kind of a crappy afternoon. Well, I won't use that pronoun, I'll speak to myself. If I'm having a crappy afternoon, I'll often think what's something kind or generous that I can do for somebody in my close immediate family? You know, go buy my son his favorite dinner. You know, send my partner, you know, something that he needs for his own projects, whatever it might be. It's wonderful to do those things and we should all continue to do them, but occasionally I'll notice I'm doing them to make myself feel good. It's some quick hit of relief that I'm doing not from a pure place of selflessness, kindness or love, but because I'm feeling kind of icky and it's a quick shortcut to feeling better about myself. Now, the importance of some of these things is that I've started seeing them as and I write about this a lot as invitations.
Speaker 2:So when we have these moments where we reflexively want to reach for something to feel less discomfort, instead of following through, picking up the phone, unconsciously spending an hour scrolling through Instagram or YouTube or TikTok or whatever your secret sauce is, think about what is it that I am trying to not feel right now? What is it that I am avoiding doing or facing or considering starting to treat discomfort as a guide. And I have this, this visual metaphor I use a lot, which discomfort is usually, you know, comes to the door and you hear a gentle knocking on the door, and in prior years in my life I would find a way to turn the music up. I don't hear anything, do you? Nope, let's carry on, have another glass of wine. We're good here, Right? And these days I try I'm not perfect at this, but I really try to say, okay, oh, there's, there's an important messenger here, there's a wise source of guidance here, this discomfort inside of my being. And I'm going to go to the door and I'm going to open it and I'm going to invite discomfort in and I'm going to ask discomfort to sit down and I'm going to offer them a cup of tea and I'm going to ask them what are they trying to tell me? What do I need to hear?
Speaker 2:And when we start listening to our discomfort, instead of dimming it out with some escapist behavior or habit, we can really change our lives. This is where actual transformation happens, because we start noticing like, oh, I'm actually uncomfortable in the presence of that person, or I don't like the way that this boss speaks to me behind closed doors or that social setting doesn't feel aligned with how I want to spend my Friday evening anymore. So when we actually start feeling those signals and hearing the guidance that comes from that inner intuitive guidance, then we actually have more information with which to change our lives, to be more aligned with how we actually want to show up in the world and what we want our career to look like, what we want our relationships to look like, how we spend a Friday night. And so you know, the invitation with this clear life work is to really pay attention to what.
Speaker 2:What do we use to dim out that signal? What do we use to kind of get through that signal? What do we use to kind of get through or survive or escape from parts of our lives as human beings that are maybe unpleasant, and how can we either use them more consciously, in a more healthful way, or eliminate them altogether and see what life is like? In my case it meant eliminating alcohol altogether. For somebody who has a complicated relationship with food, that's not possible and you need to think about how am I using this thing to escape or kind of self-soothe and then get to some of the deeper work of what it is that's actually making us uncomfortable in the first place.
Speaker 1:This is so powerful, especially kind of looking at. There's such a narrative in the personal development space and in the wellness world of almost like Deborah Eden Toll, a meditation teacher that I love shout out to her Eden she calls it sunshining, right which is like just seeing the bright side, focusing on that, focusing only on the good feelings, and I love this powerful reframe of actually befriending this discomfort and welcoming it, as you said, almost like to be able to guide you back to your true, authentic core. I mean I think that is so, so, so powerful, because I mean I'll speak for myself, right. All those uncomfortable feelings, grief, shame, imposter syndrome, anxiety, those things are not comfortable to deal with and I just I love being able to see them as friends, not foes. That is just so powerful, so powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's your own inner wisdom and it is what helps us make really important changes. For sure, you know, there's another side to this coin, which is in our relationship with people who have an excessive use of, in our perspective or perception, or dependency on a dimmer of some kind, right? So, growing up, I was culturally and socially trained to see people who had addictions or dependencies as ill or diagnosed with something or something is wrong with them. They kind of go in a category of people who couldn't handle it, and so now they're over there and we're over here and we're fine. Well, what this does is it? It helps us see others with a true compassion and empathy for where they are.
Speaker 2:And I want to you know, speaking of acknowledging people acknowledge Gabor Mate for this perspective, because he really wrote to it beautifully in his book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, which is a very powerful work preceding his more famous now, the Myth of Normal and whatnot.
Speaker 2:But he really invites us all to see that when somebody is developing a dependency or an addiction on anything I mean drugs and alcohol are the most obvious, but it could be social media work, exercise, sex, you name it that's a signal to the people around that person that they're suffering, something is painful in them, something is not right, and it might be an old trauma that they're metabolizing or refusing to metabolize, or it might be something difficult in their day-to-day lives. But for us to approach people who are in that place with more curiosity and empathy, as opposed to judgment or stigma, that is transformative for the individual, for the relationship, for the circle of people around that individual, and so it's not only for ourselves, it's also for those around us and talk about a ripple effect. It's also for those around us. And talk about a ripple effect. That simple shift can transform families, small communities, sanghas. I mean it really is a big change in the way that we view people who may be in some sort of difficulty or pain.
Speaker 1:That is so important, that you mentioned that, especially kind of considering the epidemic of addiction that is present. And I think when we talk about that, we're really talking about like substance abuse that is present in our country right now, but I would say that it really extends to all of us and it's kind of wild. I remember, maybe like 10 years ago, when I first started working as a product manager in tech. I worked at a startup and this was in the B2B, so business to business space, but we brought in near Ayal, like somebody who had worked with excuse me, not near Ayal himself, but somebody who had worked with him directly to consult on, essentially, how to make our products more addictive, like to make them more pleasant and addictive. And so I named this because and I won't name the company at the time I was like this is the coolest thing ever. It's like psychological life hacks, right, like how amazing that design can do this in the world, right, like that we can create quote unquote I'm doing air quotes right now, but like delightful experiences.
Speaker 1:I think it's just so important to note that these substances in all their forms, are designed to be addictive, like they feel good when we consume them. And I think, as you mentioned, it's so important to have compassion for ourselves and for others as we consume these dimmers, and then, of course, for people who, unfortunately, are really, really suffering from addiction and it has that effect on their lives. It's just, I mean, you know, here in the Bay Area we see it every day. So that is just such an important, important, important call out. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, Cecily, I could chat with you for hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, cecily, I could chat with you for hours but I want to be mindful of time. I would love for my audience, this community, to connect with you. Where can people find you? What do you have? Send a weekly newsletter on whatever is super alive for me that week. Sometimes it's a deep dive research on alcohol policy and sometimes it's on processing forgiveness, so you get a full spectrum of writings there. But you can find me easily on Substack under my name, cecily Mack, writings there, but you can find me easily on Substack under my name, cecily Mack. I also have a Instagram community at Clear Life Journey. People can pop over there.
Speaker 2:I have one season of a podcast out called Undimmed Yay. You can find that on Spotify or Apple with my name or just looking for Undimmed. And then in early 2026, my book on this topic Undimmed Awareness Practices to Reclaim Power, agency and Freedom from Unwanted Habits will be published by Flatiron Press out of Macmillan, and that is really more of my kind of eight awareness approach to living a clear life. So it starts with my life is better, clear and goes into I choose what I consume and their segments on intuition and how we spend our time and concluding with service. It's really kind of a fresh new approach to resolving our difficult relationship with an unwanted habit or tendency or dimmer in a way. That's really about freedom and agency and choice, not failure, surrender or stigma. So I'm really excited to be bringing that book into the world and if you want to, you know you could probably pop over to my website for anything current Like I have a couple of workshops coming up, we do some monthly gatherings online and all those things are at CecilyMackcom too.
Speaker 1:This was amazing, cecily, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love speaking with you. I look forward to seeing you in 3D soon and thank you for having me as a guest in this beautiful community. I know you you tend to with a lot of care, so thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thanks everyone, ciao. Thank you so much for tuning into the Other Way. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a five-star review. It really helps the podcast grow and I'm ever so grateful. If you want to stay connected, you can find information on how in our show notes. And finally, if you're curious about inflow and want free resources around cyclical living or moon cycles, check out inflowplannercom. And, of course, for all my listeners, you can use the code podcast10, and that's all lowercase podcast10, for 10% off any purchase. All right, that's all for today. See you next time.
