083: [ZEN PHILOSOPHY] Navigating Life’s Uncertainties, Embracing Mindfulness, & Overcoming Imposter Syndrome with Leo Babauta

What can Zen philosophy teach us about navigating the unpredictability of entrepreneurship and life? Tune into The Other Way as we chat with Leo Babauta, bestselling author and founder of Zen Habits, to explore how we can embrace joy and opportunity, even in the face of chaos. Leo shares his personal journey with a warmth and authenticity that will resonate with anyone who’s going through tough times.

From overcoming imposter syndrome to practicing mindfulness, Leo’s wisdom shines as we discuss practical ways to live fully in each moment. We also dive into the power of compassion and curiosity for personal and professional growth. You won’t want to miss this heart-to-heart episode filled with insightful lessons from one of the most genuine voices in simplicity and mindfulness. Let Leo’s mission to help others thrive through uncertainty inspire you. 

About Leo:

Leo Babauta is a simplicity blogger & author. He created Zen Habits, a Top 25 blog with a million readers. He’s also a best-selling author, a husband, father of six children, and a vegan. In 2010 moved from Guam to California, where he leads a simple life.

He’s also a Zen student, and is on a mission to help the world open through uncertainty training.

Connect with Leo:
 
IG: officialzenhabits
LinkedIn: leo-babauta-zenhabits
zenhabits.net 

Transcript

Kasia: 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Other Way, a lifestyle podcast exploring uncommon, unconventional or otherwise alternative approaches to life, business and health. I'm your host, kasia. I'm the founder of InFlow, a women's wellness brand that designs intentional products to help women reconnect to their unique cyclical rhythm and find a balance between being and doing. This podcast is an extension of my mission within Flow. Here we provide intentional interviews with inspiring humans, trailblazers, researchers, spiritual teachers and more on the journey of doing things the other way. On the journey of doing things the other way. Hello everyone, and welcome to the Other Way. I am so excited to welcome this next guest. He is someone that I have been following for a while, have read his work for a while, listened to his podcast for quite a long time. At this point, I am speaking with the incredible Leo Babauta, who is a simplicity blogger and author. He created Zen Habits, a top 25 blog with a million readers, and he's also a bestselling author, husband, father of six children and vegan, and he is a Zen student on a mission to help the world through uncertainty training.

Kasia: 1:25

Today's conversation is so, so, so special because I feel like I got to pick the brain of somebody so seasoned and wise in both the area of entrepreneurship, but of Zen, zen philosophy and also mindfulness practice as it can apply to our modern lives. We cover so many incredible things today. Our core theme is really the intersection of Zen and Buddhist philosophy. How can we apply some of the theories that were taught in Zen Buddhism to our world as entrepreneurs, as creatives, as people just trying to live our best lives? We talk about navigating uncertainty, tools for finding joy in uncertainty, how our greatest shakeups can be our biggest opportunities and how to actually experience that If you are someone who is going through a difficult time.

Kasia: 2:18

Leo goes through a very specific story in his life that I think would apply to a lot of entrepreneurs and creatives out there. We talk about how to cultivate a mindfulness practice when you're dealing with anxiety, loss or chaos. We talk about the power of living each moment like it could be your last and how to really apply this approach to our lives. We, of course, dive into imposter syndrome and so much more. Leo is so open, so just authentic. I feel like it radiates from the video that I just had with him the video call I just had with him, and I know you're going to hear it when listening to this episode. Without further ado, let's welcome Leo to the podcast and I hope you're going to hear it when listening to this episode. Without further ado, let's welcome Leo to the podcast and I hope you enjoy Leo. Welcome to the podcast.

Leo Babauta: 3:11

Thanks for having me. It's an honor.

Kasia: 3:13

Well, as I shared already, the honor is truly all mine. I've been a fan of your blog for many, many years, before I've even started dabbling in Zen, and your podcast is absolutely phenomenal, like I feel like it touches on all the issues that you know I personally deal with as a founder, that my friends deal with as founders or creative beings. So just so well done, thank you.

Leo Babauta: 3:38

I'll pay you later for that. But yeah, thank you, I can. I'll take those compliments any day of the week. It feels really good.

Kasia: 3:46

Perfect, you deserve it All, right. Well, we have a lot to cover, but before I dive into all the questions that I've prepared and some of those that I hadn't even prepared as they come up in conversation, I want to start with my favorite question to ask, and that is what are three words that you would use to describe yourself?

Leo Babauta: 4:03

Oh, first one that comes up is curious. I think that's actually why I started. Not only the podcast but the Zen Habits blog was just a deep sense of curiosity about, like how we work and like how do we change our lives and who are we, and all of this stuff so curious would be. One Compassionate is another one. I couldn't always say that about myself because I think I really doubted that, but I've learned that I actually have a real natural compassion for others and myself, and what I've been doing is trying to cultivate, allowing that to come out more and more, and I think I really like to acknowledge that that is a deep part of who I am.

Leo Babauta: 4:44

A third word playful yeah, playful, and sometimes like in a mischievous way, like I have like a prankster, trickster kind of aspect to my playfulness. But just like I just like to play and that's how I see this podcast is you and I getting turning the microphones on and just getting to play together, and that's how I work with everybody and how I play with my kids and my wife and I just get to play. So it's just a good time.

Kasia: 5:14

I love that. I'm curious is playful? Playful, excuse me. Would playful be a word that you would have always used, or is that something that you've embraced in some of the shifts that I know you've brought about in your life, as you've dove into some of the concepts we're going to talk about today?

Leo Babauta: 5:31

Yeah, I wouldn't say I would have always used it. I think it was always there, but it was a part of myself that I didn't let come out to play. So it was like, I think, when I first started the blog this is like 2007. So you know, 17 years ago or more, which is mind blowing right now as I'm saying that but when I started it was like productivity you know what I mean Like change your life, like how do I optimize myself? And Zen was a part of it. But it was.

Leo Babauta: 5:58

It was like the flavor of Zen, which was like I need to get this like focus and peace and calm of Zen, which was like I need to get this like focus and peace and calm, and like it was very kind of like on task approach. Now it wasn't. That wasn't the way I was trying to be like. I really wanted to like like go of attachment and find calm and like inner peace and simplicity. But if you looked at the way that I was showing up in those days, it was very much like productivity, focused, that kind of optimizing that's like, so, like you know, rampant these days, and so it was not playful at all and it wasn't until I started to trust myself more that I could let that come out. Yeah.

Kasia: 6:39

Oh, I think that's huge. I mean, you don't often get on podcasts with another guest. You know, for some people speaking publicly or having your voice heard out there, it can be really overwhelming or bring up a lot of different things. And so I just I love that attitude of play, like it really brings like a different energy to it and and I love that you mentioned that you bring that to a lot of the things that you do.

Kasia: 7:04

I think that's like such a powerful perspective shift for sure, for sure that comes with that overwhelm fear and I'm not judging any of that.

Leo Babauta: 7:12

I can relate to all of it. But that's because we have this idea that we need to do things the right way, come across the right way. We might get judged. It's not safe and it's so interesting. I think it's so sad because if you watch kids play, they're not doing it right. There's no right way to do play. There's no like right way to do play. There's no should. Here they just get to go out and like have fun and explore and have adventures together or by themselves, and we drill that out of them Like we try and like get them to do it the right way because of our own fears as parents or as a society, and so by the time we are like college age, we have learned not to play Like this has to be done the right way and the ones who still play usually are the ones who are not doing it right and we like kind of judge them right, Like oh, they're slackers and losers and flaky and all these things.

Leo Babauta: 8:17

It was like so sad, I'm not judging anyone who has those judgments. Like this is just kind of our society.

Kasia: 8:23

Yeah, yeah, that's such a good observation and, you know, it's kind of a really perfect segue, because one of the things that I didn't know too much about, like the evolution of your blog, like I think I had stumbled upon it years ago when I was knee deep in optimizing my time, being the ultimate perfect type A, which feels like almost like an innate tendency that I don't know if I would say innate definitely was like built in at some point. But it's interesting to hear that your blog, which is a top 25 blog with millions of readers around the world, that it did have that evolution, because you speak to the word, you know, quote, unquote, doing it right. And I'm curious to see, like, as you started to shift the way that you did things, what was that journey like? Because I can at least imagine that, okay, you got to this level of success and now you're going to change something that can be scary, right? So, like, make that pivot. So could you talk a bit about that journey, Right? So, like, make that pivot.

Leo Babauta: 9:24

So could you talk a bit about that journey? Yeah, I don't think it's like anything that I'm like always choosing into and like it's always conscious and always like a goal that I'm hitting. You know, I mean like I want to be playful and let go of doing it right and all of that. I think it's like a gradual letting go when I realize that something's not serving me and it has to happen over and over again. And so that's been how my evolution has been. Let's say, I want to simplify my life, right, and so the first version of that is have the perfect minimalist life, where there's like everything is perfect, which you could see is like still has that flavor of like tightness and doing it right and getting to the ideal, still type type a very much Right. So like the perfect minimalist house or whatever, or life. And then I realized like, oh, like I'm trying to like let go of things and and find simplicity, and I'm like really tight about it and I'm like that's not serving me. And so then I'm like, okay, what would it look like to like let go of some of that? How could I like bring a little bit of like less attachment, more looseness, more curiosity. And so each time I've done something, I always start with a lot of like tightness. So, yeah, I want to start exercising, so I start running, and then all of a sudden I'm doing a marathon, and then an ultra marathon like something like hardcore and badass, and so I'm like, okay, that was cool. Like I'm run myself into the ground at some point, like what's another way to do that? And so I kind of make an adjustment and I think that's how it's been the entire time is I start out like really like I step into the unknown and I need to do it right. Every time I go into the unknown I need to do it right.

Leo Babauta: 11:14

Even my podcast, when I started my podcast and I've been practicing all this stuff for so many years. But with the podcast I'm like okay, podcast, I don't know how to do a podcast. Let me do all the research. Let me do like get the right equipment, hire somebody to like tell me how to do everything, just perfectly.

Leo Babauta: 11:30

And I was like at some point I'm like I'm not having fun with this, like why am I doing the podcast this way? And so I'm like let me just press record and just have fun with it. And it was the most fun that I had with a podcast up until that point. It was just like let me just do it and it doesn't matter. And I actually published that as my first podcast episode and I've done every episode like. That is like no script, I don't even know exactly. Like there's no outline. I have a topic, I know the topic but I'm just letting myself kind of play and it's so much more fun. It's just like I got to like relax and like it's just that's how I want to do everything. But I can't, when I first start, just because of this, like tightness when I step into the unknown.

Kasia: 12:15

So that's. It's really interesting that you mentioned that, because one I can deeply relate to everything you're mentioning, especially that aspect of like, almost like setting a goal and then like kind of creating the perfect path to get there and like really feeling tightly attached to that goal In a way like that's something that, at least in my experience, rings very true, and you know, you and I talked offline right beforehand, but obviously you are a student of Zen. This is a huge part of your life today. It's something that I'm also on the journey of exploring and I'm curious how does your Zen practice or your study of Zen influence this behavior and perhaps also how you approach things like your business?

Leo Babauta: 12:58

Okay, very deep topic, but let me see if I can get a couple of illustrations of it. So, with Zen, I did the same thing. So I'm like, oh, zen student, it's going to be so calm and everything. And then I started doing it. Just right, I need to sit and be perfect, sit every day at the same time, have the perfect posture. And I don't know, everything I had to do was just right. And I realized, oh, like, as I sat, I realized like there was like this rigidity to how I was trying to do it and I was like, what's that about? And one of the amazing things about, you know, meditation and just sitting is like you start to face all of these things that are always present for you. But they're there, as you know, they show up and you're like, ah, I started like not liking to meditate because I had to face the things that I didn't have to face when I could distract myself by productivity and all that kind of stuff.

Leo Babauta: 13:51

I'm like, ah, meditation, like it's. So why am I having such a hard time with it? I'm resisting it. And it was because there was no way for me to do it perfectly, like. I'm like, ah, here's how to do it perfectly. Oh, here's how and here's how, and there's no way. Like, you can't, you cannot do it perfectly. And so I was struggling with it and then I realized I brought this to, but here I'm, like, faced with it, which I did not want to be confronted by, and so I tried to avoid meditation. I like, like maybe Zen isn't for me. And it wasn't until, like I was in conversation with my teacher that I realized, like this is actually always there for me, and once I started seeing it as, like you know, taking that pill in the matrix and being able to see the whole matrix was like, yes, it's all there, all around me, and so that was eye opening.

Leo Babauta: 14:50

And so, in my business, to speak to that in my business, the great thing about that is I don't have to be confronted by it. Most of the time, I get to just pretend that it's not there and distract myself and be super busy, go for goals like'm putting out a blog post, and that's amazing. I put out a podcast that's amazing, and it's very outward focused, and so it's one of the most comfortable things about being an entrepreneur for me is that I always have stuff to do that I could try and do better and more perfectly. So I could do that forever, and it wasn't until, like, there are times when I couldn't avoid being confronted by what was driving me, like why I was, how I was trying to do things perfectly. And so there was, there was a couple of things that had me actually like confront that.

Leo Babauta: 15:38

One of them was when my business was financially actually took a big hit and I was really struggling there and I was like, ah, like I'm going into debt again, which I don't like. So there's like me not doing it perfectly, like debt is shameful and I'm bad, um, and I like I'm like I have a whole identity as an entrepreneur and so it's not going well. Therefore, like what does that mean about my identity? So I had to like really face that. I brought that to.

Leo Babauta: 16:03

I have a teacher, but I also have a coach who's not a Zen teacher. So I brought this to my coach and we started to take a look at it and I realized the stuff that's coming up for me right now is exactly what I need to be facing, because it's always there. It's just now, when the ship is running into the ground, that I actually have to be confronted by it and that really opened my eyes. And so every time now that my ship starts to run into the ground, I realized that there's something to confront. And now I actually, for the most part, I embrace it.

Kasia: 16:34

Sometimes I don't want to, but that is such a good kind of insight to have and I deeply relate to this as well kind of non in my productive life but in my personal life. My mom and I've talked about this on the podcast, so it's already been a couple of months, but my mom was recently diagnosed with stage four cancer, which I feel like is like the ultimate shakeup. That causes A like an intense amount of like acute presence in like my life experience, or it caused that kind of acute presence. But also B, there's like so little within your control or like my control in this experience, where I found myself just being like okay, like how can I be with this as it is, which is just such a different experience than I've had with like every other. You know.

Kasia: 17:24

Shake up may be like business related, where I just try to like muscle through it and like solve the problem, and you know it just caused this kind of acute presence and also awareness of what was happening, that I was able to see it from a different perspective, and I just I love that you mentioned your ability to do that in like other difficult situations and how these shakeups seem to kind of bring that up, because that is, I think, one of the ultimate gifts of you know kind of freedom to be able to live life that way. So that's really powerful.

Leo Babauta: 18:00

Yeah, yeah, and thanks for sharing that, by the way, and I'm sorry to hear about your mom, but I can only imagine how hard that is. My mom had a cancer scare. She got cancer. Luckily, you know, she's cancer free at the moment. So like she went through all of the chemo and all of that stuff and she came through on the other side.

Leo Babauta: 18:20

But the part that I can relate to is when she first got it, like how shook I was, you know, and I was like already imagining my life without her and already grieving and really scared, and I was like you know, this is one of the people I love the most in the world and like I'm about to lose her is kind of is the story that came up and I watched myself wanting to take control and do everything that I could and I was doing research and I was like there's actually only so much that you can do. She's got it. My mom is super capable and can handle her own health care. She doesn't need me to do all this stuff. And yet here I was kicking into overdrive, trying to take control, control.

Leo Babauta: 19:07

It caused me to sit there and like I'm afraid right now. And I want control, because whenever I'm afraid, I look for control and it's not always helpful Almost almost always not. So like nothing wrong with control, but I I try and grab control of a situation and it I realized that all she needed me to do was just like be there with her as she went through it, and she didn't even need that. But that was like the best that I could do, and so I just learned to be with my own fears and then learned to be with her as she went through fears, and it was actually a huge gift. So anyway, I'm not trying to say our situations are the same at all, but I just wanted to relate to part of that.

Kasia: 19:42

Oh, I, really I do appreciate that. Thank you, and I love what you just said about it being a gift, because I kind of describe it as that. It's like the best, worst gift ever, um, cause, obviously, like I would never wish this gift, but it does come with like other incredible things, because there's just something so profound about having a moment of feeling like Whoa, like what if this is the last time? Like the reality is that any moment could be the last time, right, like this could be the last podcast interview I do in my life, like who knows right. But we don't think about things that way. But when you know, I think experiences like that really can shake us up, which I think is really powerful. Hi everyone, I wanted to take a moment to tell you about today's sponsor us up, which I think is really powerful.

Kasia: 20:41

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Kasia: 21:36

All right, now back to the episode. You know I kind of want to go back to the story that you had shared around you know, the time in your business where you had these financial struggles, because it's interesting like those kinds of shakeups unlike shakeups of our mortality, which bring us face to face with how transient life is and like all of that stuff, and kind of bring up a lot of gratitude. I think like shakeups financial shakeups at least in my experience, having gone through them as well often bring up a lot of fears and a lot of scarcity and like a lot of grasping and there's something very real there, because we are talking about survival instincts coming in and you know kind of that also happening.

Kasia: 22:20

So I'm curious how did you work through that and you know this could be from like, maybe how did you apply some of your Zen practice to it or the other tools that you have? Because I think that a lot of the things that drive us in business actually come from a lot of similar fears. Like I can deeply relate to the fear of, you know, a financial struggle happening and I think that drives me a lot. So I'd love to hear how you navigated that.

Leo Babauta: 22:48

Yeah, so I think you're right. Like even when we're not in financial struggle or turmoil, like things are going like medium well, even really well, like all of that might not feel the same as a financial struggle, but the same things are driving us. We just don't have to see them. Like there's not, like the fear is not, like rising up to the surface where we can actually see it. It's still there. It's still driving us. So, yeah, absolutely I love the wisdom of that. How did I work with it?

Kasia: 23:15

Kind of like applying my like Zen get out of it, Because I think the situation will be different for everyone, but more so like how do you kind of work through that to almost like navigate the emotional turmoil of that that comes up?

Leo Babauta: 23:33

Yeah, well, again, the first thing is always like my, my usual stuff kicks in, which is all pretty much always control of some kind. Sometimes the control is avoidance, so that's a form of control, right? So one one kind of avoidance with finances for me is when things are going bad. I like try not to look at it like blinders on, like I'm just gonna look at like what I have in front of me today and don't open your chase app, like that's my habit.

Kasia: 24:03

Yeah, when things are going well.

Leo Babauta: 24:06

I'm like, oh, I want to check that a lot, right, because it feels good. But no, when you know so avoidance would be one, and kind of like wishful thinking is another one. It's like, okay, things are going to turn, get better. All I got to do is like really stay busy and, you know, try and generate some money and things will be better, right, so I just don't have to look at the problem. That was one.

Leo Babauta: 24:26

Avoidance control also might look like, uh, well, when I did confront it, I'm like that is scary, and so, um, I kicked my action control, uh, kicked into overdrive. So I'm like doing a lot of action. You'll see me being churning out tasks, like really like you know, setting up a bunch of meetings and calls and all kinds of different things where I'm like in action to try and create something. That would be another thing, and all of it is like very anxious, anxious and tight. So all of that is kicking in. That's the kind of driving myself crazy, because I'm just like there's just only so much you can do with action where it doesn't actually solve the problem. You're just kind of running around like a chicken with its head cut off, you know, just like crazy, and so when I can catch that, what I usually do is try and find a mirror for myself which is either my teacher or my coach or a good friend who can listen to me, because it's hard for me to see when I'm in it. As a coach and a Zen student, I can now see a lot more than I could before, and so one of the things that I learned to do is reach out. Another thing that I learned is just to sit, and for me, my meditation practice actually drops away when I'm in that state, so, and which is actually when I need it the most right Ironic, and I know that I need it and I'm like I'm going to start meditating and then I don't, and which is why I know like, oh, this is really kicking in.

Leo Babauta: 25:59

So the way that I actually find my way into meditation is go for a walk out in nature, and I'll go out there because I know I'm kind of driving myself crazy, and then I will sit somewhere where I'm surrounded by nature, and the way that I hold that is that nature. This is abundant, like nurturing energy, is like holding me in my meditation, in my reflection, in my just sitting, in stillness, and when I sit there, all I do is just notice like what's present for me, and it's just sitting in stillness. And when I sit there, all I do is just notice like what's present for me, and it's just sensations in the body and they're usually anxiety. There might be other stuff as well, so I'm really getting present to the sensations of anxiety and fear and usually tight. So just sitting there often just allows me to be present with it, which helps a lot because I'm trying to not be present with it, which helps a lot because I'm trying to not be present with it, I'm trying to avoid it. Just all this stuff is distraction, so I don't have to feel that. And so as long as I'm just sitting there with it, I'm already healing it, like just kind of soothing it, giving it what it needs.

Leo Babauta: 27:01

It's ironic because we don't want to be with it and we're giving it exactly what it doesn't need. So all I got to do is sit with it. Deepen the breath helps me to be with it. Being in nature helps me to be with it. Bringing some of that compassion and kindness that I talked about helps me to be with it. And the more I do it, the more.

Leo Babauta: 27:15

I realize, like, actually this is it's not a 10 out of 10 panic, like I need to go to, I need to curl up in a ball on the floor or anything like that. It's like a seven or a six, and so it's actually not that hard. It's so scary to be with it when I'm in the panic mode, but when I can just be with it it's actually like, yeah, it's just sensation in the body. I've practiced with this many times. So it loses its significance. It's just like, oh yeah, I've done this a lot, it's no big deal. And when it loses its significance, then I don't need to run from it, and so it actually becomes much more accessible to sit with it during the rest of the day. And I find little checkpoints where I can do that. I talk to someone and that helps me to like see what's going on.

Leo Babauta: 27:58

And then what I do is I set up a practice of noticing where I'm just like it's almost like I have a camera watching the whole thing and I'm trying to see not only what am I feeling, but what is it that I tend to do, what are my tendencies? So I start to watch out for those. So, like, what am I trying to do? Like usually some kind of control thing, but it's really interesting just to see it in action and then like, what would I like to do instead of that? And sometimes I don't have an answer for that, but one of the answers is pretty much always just sit and like, be with the feeling and take care of the feeling, soothe it, all of that kind of stuff. And then I usually have a little more space, let's say a few degrees more space, to like just choose from a place of you know I'm choosing, as opposed to automatic actions, and so that's where I can start to choose with more responsiveness rather than just kind of panic. Another thing that I like to do, just to kind of close it out, I like to start to see the overall pattern. It's like forest for the trees. So you know I mentioned that camera view.

Leo Babauta: 29:01

It's like where I am right now is kind of this panic and claw my way out kind of place. But this is only one point in a whole cycle, and so how do I end up here? And what am I? You know, have I been here before where I'm trying to claw myself out? Yes, what do I tend to do from there. What are my next things and how do I end up back here again?

Leo Babauta: 29:22

So, like, if I'm in this hole, like, say, it's a financial hole and I'm trying to claw my way out, I've been in this hole before. It's not like the first time I've been here, you know it's. I can remember times in my life where I was here before and I'm like, oh, I'm likely to end up here again if I don't actually see what got me in here. So I like to look at like, oh yeah, okay, I'm going to claw my way out. I'm reliable to do that. But then what? How am I going to end up right back in the same place? By that, the crisis then becomes a way to actually change my entire patterns, and usually this whole system that has me end up in this hole again is set up to have me not feel something. And the financial one, what I discovered from that? It's also a thing I discovered in relationship problems. They're both set up. The systems that I have are both set up to have me not feel powerlessness. So that's what I learned from both of those.

Kasia: 30:17

When you say systems, what are you referring to?

Leo Babauta: 30:21

Okay, let me lay one out, because everyone has theirs, we all have them, and they're like so let's imagine you're like I'm in a fight with my partner and I'm so pissed at them and like they're so aggravating and I'm just so tired of this and we always like this is not the right thing for me and I need to get out.

Leo Babauta: 30:40

Right, I'm not saying that everybody is in that, but let's just imagine a scenario, right? And so you might ask them, like okay, it makes sense, it sucks right now. You don't like how, how this is and you want to get up. That makes complete sense from this in this particular like moment. But like, have you been there before? Oh, yeah, maybe every month, I want to like get out, you know. So, like, oh, okay, that's interesting, right that this is a repeating thing. And like, what do you do? You know what happened last month when you tried to get out? Oh, so I like looked up cabins in alaska so I can like you know your, you know zen, uh, monastery, so I can just like be a monk and never have to deal with this again. Okay, cool, then what? And then, like complained to my partner and said I want to get out, and then they did this, and then we did that, and then we had a breakthrough last month and where we like we're really loving with each other and it was amazing and we had like makeup, sex and like made out all the time and it was like we're on this high, oh cool. Does that happen a lot? Oh yeah, every single time. And then what? Right, and then we like start getting into regular life and it's boring and mundane, and then we like start picking at each other and tired of each other, and then we start doing this, and then they're this way and I like shut down and I go into my cave or whatever it is Like it's not obviously going to be the same for you, but we end up back in the same place where I'm like looking for cabins in Alaska. Oh, okay, so it always goes this way and like what is this, this whole system, designed to have you not feel?

Leo Babauta: 32:12

And again, for me it was powerlessness, for others it's like worthlessness, there's some kind of feeling that we just we cannot be with. And so we set up a system. This system actually probably was set up before you were in this relationship, probably when you were pretty young. You found a way to not have to deal with worthlessness, powerlessness, helplessness, frustration, whatever it is, so you found a way to avoid it. The same thing with business, with productivity, with self-improvement things, habits, finances, productivity, with self-improvement things, habits, finances like we find a system so that we don't have to feel a certain way. Powerlessness is actually a really big one for me. It's not just in those two areas I talked about, it's everywhere in my life. Now I can see it and so I've learned to practice with that. But I've also learned to see it in everybody else's lives. It's a really big one for a lot of people and that's invisible, like we don't even see that. We don't want to feel powerless.

Kasia: 33:07

Oh my gosh, that's so fascinating.

Kasia: 33:09

You know, especially kind of I'm super immersed in, you know, the wellness world, not just because of this podcast, but the content that I'm drawn to and kind of similarly to, I think, maybe your background, for really some of it definitely into like the hyper productivity and like the optimizing yourself world.

Kasia: 33:27

And you know there's just so much language that's put out there about, like you know, these shadows that we have that we need to heal in like all these different ways. But I think it's just so amazing to hear it so crystallized. There's something so empowering about the fact that you know perhaps the root of some of the things that are coming up for us in our lives and some of the experiences that we're having, that there might be a pattern there that we can start to uncover and the root of that might be tied to a very real emotion that is just deeply uncomfortable and kind of what you shared. You know, to shine light on that and sit with that, that's it. Not heal it or make it disappear with some sort of magic, but just simply to bring awareness to that and sit with it can actually release us from some of the throws and kind of some of the patterns that you're describing. Does that sound about right?

Leo Babauta: 34:24

Yeah, absolutely. In some ways it's very simple, right. It's like, oh, I have this system, this pattern that is designed to not have me feel this one thing and all I have to do is sit with it. So there's, in some ways it's really simple and that's empowering. And then in other ways, it's just so hard to see. When we're in it it's like, oh yeah, it's like you're getting tumbled around in a wave and you're like I can't see where the shore is, I get, let alone I don't even know which way is up, let alone like I can actually distinguish the whole system. That really helps to have someone outside of yourself to help you to like work through it.

Kasia: 35:00

Oh, absolutely, and I mean it sounds so simple, but I mean kind of looking out into the world and thinking about my own experiences, and you know millions of people out there that are really kind of struggling with anxiety, with depression. Like dealing with the emotions that are plaguing us sounds simple, perhaps in theory, but in reality is nothing but simple. So, yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things that I've struggled with, actually in kind of studying Zen philosophy, is this notion of, like non-attachment. You know, and we kind of talk about, you know, not grasping maybe onto good or bad emotions. You know that can be easy in theory, but when we talk about building a business or being a kind of optimizing for productive habits, or having goals or being like a type A person, those goals really drive a lot of people.

Kasia: 36:01

And for myself, this is the one thing that I personally struggle with, where, you know, I listen to Dharma talks or like Buddhist philosophy, and I'm, you know, drawn to what they're saying but also extremely resistant towards it, because so much of my life is, like, focused on these goals. These goals give me purpose, they give my life meaning, give me something to work towards. They also give me a lot of anxiety, like let's be real there, and I know that I'm not alone in that and so I'm curious, like, how have you reconciled being ambitious and having goals and, you know, really caring about the outcome frankly, because otherwise there's like an apathy there that I feel. How have you resolved that? With non grasping, non attachment, or have you maybe we'll start there?

Leo Babauta: 36:47

Oh yeah, such a freaking great topic. Thank you for bringing it up. It's something that I've been working with deeply for a long time and I don't have the perfect answer. So I'll just tell you it's not figured out yet, but I have tried different things. So for a while I tried no goals and that was actually really fun. I'm just like, no, no goals. I'm just going to like work and do all my fun stuff and just like show up and it doesn't matter how it turns out. And I loved it, but it was. It was boring after a while.

Leo Babauta: 37:16

So, like that sense of purpose that you talked about, that you have with your goals, like for me, I like to be on purpose, I like to like be shooting for something and working towards something. So it's like you know there's, there's something really beautiful about just showing up and not caring, like where you're going, you're just enjoying the journey, right, like it's really beautiful, but it doesn't really call forward like our deepest, like part of our hearts and like our deepest purpose and our sense of courage. Right, there's no courage that's required if you're just going to show up and it doesn't matter how things turn out. So I'm not saying that it's bad to have like no goals, or you just like show up and doesn't matter. I think there's something really beautiful about that For me. I think we're similar and I think there's a lot of people like us where actually shooting for something that has meaning for us and feeling like there's a purpose that calls something else in us out, I like that, and so to me there's something really expansive about that and powerful, and it's an act of leadership to say like this is what I would like to create in the world, this is the way that I'd like to lead people, this is something I'd like to help with and I'm going to, I'm going to move towards that. So there's like a putting a stake in the ground and saying that's what I'm creating or that's where I'm going and I like that. So I'm not saying it's the right way, but I think for a lot of people it gives us a sense of purpose and meaning.

Leo Babauta: 38:43

Then we get attached. So immediately I see like, ah, this would be amazing, I'm going to put a stake in the ground. And then I'm like, oh, but can I do it? Like, what do I need to do? Like, how do I do it? Perfectly, and so all of my attachments start to come up, and so I think the way that I've been trying to work with that is committed but not attached. So I'm committed, I am making this commitment, but I am not holding so tightly where it is like I need to have it, and I'm feeling a lot of anxiety and what I will say is that that's more of an ideal than the reality, because there are some days when I feel a lot of fear and attachment and the way I'll work with that is just notice like, oh, I'm really attached right now, and so that's ooh, I'm really attached right now and so that's okay. I'm not attached to being completely unattached all the time, that's.

Leo Babauta: 39:30

I think a thing that can trip us up is like I should never, ever be attached. No, we're human. Like we get attached, we care about stuff right, like we give a shit, right, so it's like I'm going to like give a crap about things and then you know, maybe I go too far and I'm like really like oof, like attached, and then I can just work with that attachment. So I really think it's a mistake to think we will just be this Zen master, like the embodiment of the Buddha, with no attachments ever we're gonna. As humans, we will get attached. We care about stuff and we're going to get attached, and that means fear is going to happen, and then all there is to do is just to work with that fear.

Leo Babauta: 40:09

So another way to think about it is desire. So this is another kind of way that I think about goals, and attachment is desire, and I think desire is juicy. Why not have desire? Like you know ice cream, like you desire ice cream, you know your partner. Or just like you know nature, like it's freaking delicious, right? Why not just be like, ah, I love this and I desire it? But then their attachment comes in and it's like I have, I desire it. Therefore I have to have it. That's attachment. And so I think we can have desire and get tripped up by attachment and then let go of the attachment.

Leo Babauta: 40:47

So imagine like you're in a committed relationship and the two of you like to have juicy sex, right. And so you're like, oh, I want to desire my partner, and that's amazing, right, but the partner is not into it tonight, right? So you're like, oh, like I need to have it. And so there's an attachment that's there that is going to be harmful to them and to you, and so that comes from having desire. It's a property of desire, I think. And so what if we could like, instead of just extinguishing the desire, which is actually what people go to, ah, I don't want to have attachment and desire and force this person into intimacy with me, and so I'm just going to not have desire, so we just shut down our hearts and I'm like, no, that's not actually how to work with it.

Leo Babauta: 41:30

What if we could just have desire? And then we have attachment, and then we have to say it's okay for them to not want it, it's okay for us to not do something tonight, and I'm just going to feel a disappointment and heartbreak. It's like, oh, I could see this thing that we could do, that would be really juicy and sexy and playful, and yet we can't have that tonight. I'm going to grieve it and feel the heartbreak of not being wanted. And what if that was okay? To feel that, because that's actually why people extinguish desire is not because they want to be the Buddha, but because they don't want to feel the pain of rejection and heartbreak and disappointment. But what if that all comes together is like desire and attachment and rejection and heartbreak, and you could be okay with all of it. Then the juicy desire like is okay, so yeah that is so huge.

Kasia: 42:20

It kind of made me think to what you had shared earlier around some of the systems we have in place, Like what if attachment is just a system to avoid disappointment or pain from rejection, Right Like?

Kasia: 42:36

we kind of it's almost, like you know, I tend to view it as this binary thing, like attachment or non-attachment, because I think that's how it's usually talked about, and I'm like I just can't resonate, like if I don't, if I don't feel like that kind of you know goal, or like that thing I'm working towards, or like that desire for whatever, I feel apathy and I don't want to live my life that way. And so, yeah, that is, I think, such an interesting way to describe it that we don't want to extinguish the desire itself. We just want to, you know, feel perhaps, as you said, like committed but not attached necessarily to the outcome. I think that's so powerful, so powerful.

Leo Babauta: 43:18

And sometimes we will be attached. So that's, that's something I just want to call out. It's like I do get attached, and I think most people pretty much everybody, gets attached, and so when you get attached, you just notice like, ooh, I'm attached and I really want this to happen and it's not going to happen. So it's making me anxious, I'm feeling, I'm worried about being disappointed, and so just allowing ourselves to like loosen the attachment, feel the anxiety, feel the disappointment, all of that stuff is like, okay, that's actually how to work with the attachment, not to avoid feeling attachment, not to like not care. Yeah, apathy is not the answer. I don't think.

Kasia: 43:52

Absolutely so. Another thing that you talk a lot about that, I think, is well, you talk about a lot of things. We will not get into all of them today, but you definitely talk about uncertainty quite a bit in the work that you do on your podcast and I'm curious what could be for our listeners out there. A lot of us hate uncertainty, as you talked about. We like to control, I like to control, you like to control. Most people do right. May it be like control the outcomes of a health situation, or like the outcome of a particular deal that we're working on or a startup that we invested our hearts and money into? Can you talk about how perhaps reframing uncertainty can actually be a really powerful shift in our lives?

Leo Babauta: 44:37

Yeah, thanks for asking. It's such a big one. So uncertainty is a hidden force in all of our lives, so we don't even know that it's there. But if you wake up and you're like, oh, what do I need to do today? And you're like, oh crap, I got so much to do, that overwhelm is because you're not certain you're gonna be able to like do everything that needs to be done. And so I'm feeling overwhelmed because of the uncertainty. If you knew that you had a thousand things to do. But Overwhelm because of the uncertainty If you knew that you had a thousand things to do but they were going to be done by the end of the day like there'd be an overwhelm, right? So overwhelm comes from uncertainty.

Leo Babauta: 45:11

Indecision is another one. It's like, ah, I don't know which way to go, so we get stuck in indecision. Perfectionism is ah, I need to like get everything perfect when everything is feeling uncertain, procrastination and avoidance I'm sure no one listening to this has any of those things. But like those are from uncertainty. We only procrastinate because we don't know how the outcome will be. If things were like easy and certain, then we could do it. And sometimes we do like we can, scrolling through social media for a lot of people doesn't have as much uncertainty, because it's like oh, I can do this. You know, I didn't like that one, that one kind of gave me some anxiety. Next, you know what I mean. It's a way to like avoid the feeling of uncertainty because it's easy to do. For other people it's emails. You know like I can do emails really easily. So instead of facing the uncertainty of, let's say, writing that book or putting myself out there into the world, I'm just going to go and do emails. We all have our ways to avoid the uncertainty and it's all of the patterns that I talked about are often because of uncertainty. So once we start to see it and see what our ways of avoiding the uncertainty is, the empowering thing is that we can learn to relate to uncertainty in a very different way.

Leo Babauta: 46:26

Uncertainty is seen, as we feel it, as a bad thing, like I don't know how this is going to turn out. But what if that's actually what we want? If you knew the end of every movie, would you go to the movie theater? Right, like, oh well, sometimes we do. Like we'll watch you know Casablanca a whole bunch of times, but like, for the most part, like. We want to like be at the edge of our seat. Is she going to fall for him? I don't see how it's going to happen, but but of course we do know it's a rom-com, they're going to fall for each other. But anyway, my point is like the reason why we engage with stories, novels, movies is because we want to like find out, that we want to like not know the ending.

Leo Babauta: 47:04

It's the same thing with love If everything is certain, there's no like juiciness in love. Like falling in love happens in uncertainty. We're like I don't know if this person's going to like you know, want me, and there's like a juiciness there to it. There's a tension.

Leo Babauta: 47:22

Learning happens in uncertainty. If you already know stuff, there's no uncertainty. So all of our learning, the things that we like, our curiosity, happens in uncertainty. Adventure happens in uncertainty. So all of the most meaningful things, the things that you talked about like oh, I have a sense of meaning when I'm on purpose, that's because you're putting yourself intentionally into uncertainty, and so entrepreneurship is uncertainty as well. It's like a willingness to embrace that. So if all of the best things in life are in uncertainty and our natural reaction is to stay away from uncertainty, to stay in comfort and certainty, like hide in my comfort zone, then what we would realize is actually it's going to be. It's almost like a death of our aliveness to stay in our comfort and like is that actually the what I the, what I want to choose, or would I like to choose to step outside of that into the uncertainty and not know how things are going to turn out, not know if I can actually walk this path and maybe I'm going to stumble and fall and I feel really shaky in there and could there be like a thrillingness.

Leo Babauta: 48:32

One thing that I learned is that I don't like to be a beginner at stuff. You know the beginner's minds and my beginner's mind is like famous. But I learned I don't like it because I might like do really badly at it and I don't know what I'm doing. And so I learned to reframe that in my mind to like what if I could just like stumble around like a toddler learning how to walk? You know what I mean Toddlers.

Leo Babauta: 48:52

They just like stumble around like they're drunk. I hope they're not but, like you know, sometimes they look drunk and it's almost thrilling to watch them Just like they don't know, like if the next step is going to land, and they let themselves fall down and they might cry or laugh, and then they just get up and try it again. That's what learning looks like in the unknown, in uncertainty, and so basically that's what I'm trying to like. I'm trying to like let myself be a toddler, like stumbling around a little bit drunk maybe, stumbling around in the dark, like not knowing if the next step is going to land, and there's something like really brave about that and thrilling, and yeah, that's how I want to live my life, and my reaction, natural reaction is to not do that. So I have to kind of like encourage myself to step into the unknown.

Kasia: 49:41

I love that and it kind of goes back to one of the words that you described at the beginning, but like kind of what if you could play with it? As opposed to like needing it to be like so perfect and so certain. That is just so, so, so powerful. Leo, I could chat with you for hours, but we are coming up on time. If you could please let the audience know where can people find you, and I'm going to hyperlink everything below, but if you have anything exciting coming up, please share it, because I know people are gonna wanna know.

Leo Babauta: 50:10

Okay, cool. Well, so zenhabitsnet is the blog and that would be the main place. Just subscribe to that and you get all my posts. But also I share, like what else I'm putting out there, so like the podcast Zen Habits Podcast. If I share, like what else I'm putting out there, so like the podcast Zen Habits podcast. If you listen to podcasts, which you do because you're listening to this Zen Habits podcast is the thing. And as we're recording this, I'm starting season three, which is about the Zen of productivity. So that's out. And then I'm also having fun playing on YouTube. So, yeah, just creating there. So Zen Habits Official or something like that, official Zen Habits, one of those. So go on there. I'm putting some cool stuff on there that's about this kind of stuff, or habits and productivity are on there as well. But I'm just having fun creating there and I like when people suggest stuff. So come on there, tell me what you wanna see and I'll make something for you.

Kasia: 51:09

Amazing suggest stuff.

Leo Babauta: 51:10

So come on there, tell me what you want to see and I'll make something for you. Amazing, leo, thank you so so much for joining me today. Oh, it's a pleasure. This was fun, we got to play and I really love talking about this with you and your audience. So thanks for, like you know, holding the space for it.

Kasia: 51:21

Oh, thank you for joining and everyone Thanks for listening the space for it. Oh, thank you for joining and everyone Thanks for listening. Thank you so much for tuning into the Other Way. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a five-star review. It really helps the podcast grow and I'm ever so grateful. If you want to stay connected, you can find information on how in our show notes. And finally, if you're curious about inflow and want free resources around cyclical living or moon cycles, check out inflowplannercom. And, of course, for all my listeners, you can use the code podcast10, and that's all lowercase podcast10 for 10% off any purchase. All right, that's all for today. See you next time.